Reposted from http://pastorshaun.blogspot.com/2006/04/clearing-rc-sproul-jrs-name.html along with original comments
Clearing R.C. Sproul, Jr's Name
It was a great privilege to have lunch with R.C. and Vesta Sproul this afternoon. (Some of you may know that Vesta’s brother is our assistant pastor at View Crest. So, lest you think me important, the occasion had nothing to do with yours truly.) During the course of conversation, we turned to a discussion of the recent allegations against R.C.’s son. At the close of our conversation, I asked R.C. if I could share what he had told me via Postscript Posthaste. He said that would be fine.Please understand that what I am saying here is by no means “official”. I recognize that many of my readers have a deep respect for both R.C. and R.C. Jr., and I want to ease their consciences about this matter. I also understand that there are those out there who find no greater pleasure than to slander another man’s character. For those in the latter group, you’ll want to stop reading now. I will offer you nothing of flammability and I do not wish my name associated with your diatribes. Even when I initially addressed this issue, my purpose was only to remind all of us of the deep necessity of Biblical accountability and not to issue judgment. Further, anything I say here is technically “hearsay” so it won’t stand up in any court. Nevertheless, I trust R.C. and believe he is telling the truth about his son.
So then, what is going on with R.C. Jr.?
Of late we have heard little about the situation surrounding R.C. Jr’s “defrocking” and this is for good reason. I am told that most, if not all of the charges brought against the session of St. Peters were themselves fraudulent. (I will address some of them below.) In case of point, no trial actually took place before the pronouncement of deposition was issued. This is highly irregular and because of this, the elders of St. Peters have sought to clear their names via examination apart from their former denomination, the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (RPCGA). As I write, the Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals (CRE) is conducting a detailed examination of the charges. What this means is that the trial they did not receive is being conducted by a third party. The results, soon to be released, will then be examined by other groups for the purpose of validating conclusions and clearing the name of the men involved.
The Charge of Tax ID MisuseThe elders of St. Peter’s were charged with using the ARP (Associate Reformed Presbyterian) Tax ID number instead of the RPCGA number. According to R.C. Sr., a consultant had been called in to help St. Peter’s with their finances. That consultant discovered the ARP ID number being used (which was there because the church had formerly been ARP) and informed them they needed to fix that. R.C. Jr. promptly called both the ARP to apologize and the IRS to apologize and initiate changes.
The Charge of Lording It Over the CongregationThe elders of St. Peter’s were charged with not allowing members to leave. I am told the members in question were under discipline of the church and were told they would not be allowed to flee discipline. This is the normal process with members under discipline in Presbyterianism. We don’t want folks running from accountability. That people do leaveanyway is beside the point. After they did leave, they complained to the General Assembly and their charge was thus included.
The Charge of Planting a Church and Ordaining a Pastor Without Permission of the PresbyteryWhat the documentation of the RPCGA fails to note regarding this charge is that a separate presbytery of that same denomination did, in fact, do these things. As I understand it, the church that was planted was not within the bounds of the presbytery which St. Peter’s was in. It was only later that the Moderator of the denomination ruled that church “unofficial”. (Please don’t ask me how a Moderator can do this. My understanding is that this is a very small denomination that places a great deal of power in the hands of its denominational Moderator.)
The Charge of Practicing Paedo-CommunionThis simply wasn’t the case. Young children were examined by the elders for the purpose of discerning a credible profession of faith and some were admitted, but no infants were allowed to partake. Even the PCA Book of Church Order says that it is up to the discretion of the elders as to the age at which a child can demonstrate faith. This was the process at St. Peters.
In Conclusion
In conclusion, I must say that I am pleased to hear the “other side” of this story and I sincerely hope that justice is served in the most positive sense. I would love nothing more than for their names to be cleared and their ministries continue unhindered. I am making this information available only to do my part in maintaining balance, easing consciences pricked by what they had heard, and to inform you, my readers, of the upcoming report from the CRE.
I urge you to continue to pray for these men and for the Reformed Church at large that is impacted by events like these. May God be glorified even through this.
46 Comments:
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I'm glad that there is someone looking into this because it is confusing and I think if RC Sproul Jr. has been slandered it should be cleared up publicly.
I am a moderator at Challies.com, where a reader has posted the complete text of this article. Would you give permission to leave it up? If not, I will remove it and leave a link back here.
With reference to RC Jr's defrocking (notice that I don't join you in the use of scare quotes), I find it very curious that you nowhere refer to, let alone mention, the documentary evidence in the matter. Doing so could have avoided you making a number of obvious errors.
For instance, you repeatedly state that RCJr and his thugs were denied a trial. Yet in fact, RCJr jumped the denominational ship before the trial could be held. The RPCGA Declartory Judgment removing these men from office, which was unanimously approved by Westminster Presbytery and was in full accord with their BCO, was based only on the charges that they pled guilty to. RCJr demanded to be released before the trial on the disputed charges could be held. The public statement issued by the RPCGA immediately after releasing them from general membership clearly states that the trial on disputed matters was forthcoming:
"While these men were deposed (defrocked) from office for their continued pattern of actions in violation of the Book of Church Order, they were not brought to trial on personal issues from other allegations that were made. Westminster Presbytery was considering a further investigation of the allegations of personal sinful behavior against them to determine if there was sufficient evidence that a trial regarding these allegations was necessary."
The Declaratory Judgment (p. 10) quotes a 12/15/05 email from RCJr to the Moderator asking that: 1) that they be allowed to leave the RPCGA, who would still conduct the trial; or 2) that the trial be transfered to another denomination (presumably the CRE). Thus, your bald assertion that RCJr was somehow denied a trial by the RPCGA is a gross mischaracterization of the facts.
Perhaps the most substantive charge to which RCJr pled guilty to was exercising discipline against John Austin and his entire family without any due process whatsoever. (As an aside, I do find it a bit cheeky that he and his defenders now whine and falsely complain about the process imposed by the RPCGA; at least they had full access to due process, unlike the Austins and several other families at St. Peter.) For this, the defrocked session confessed and stated their repentence as did RCJr individually. Are you really encouraging your readers to ignore the admissions to the facts made by these men, or are you contending that these admissions were made under torture administered by Ken Talbot, the Westminster Presbytery moderator? Should we also ignore altogether the witness of RCJr's personal assistant, Rick Saenz, who apologized for his role in the unlawful censure of the Austin family and who confessed his cowardice in the face of RCJr's tyrannical abuse, or is he also part of the grand blogstorm conspiracy that Mark Horne decries?
I will, however, commend you for not repeating the mindless mantra advanced by Laurence Windham, Doug Wilson and Randy Booth (the CRE Moderator) that these "men" were "deposed without censure". I do find it sadly amusing that the CRE is now conducting an "examination". With the CRE's long history of harboring denominational fugitives (e.g.: Burke Shade, Dennis Tuuri, etc.), this is kind of like the Nazis conducting a war crimes trial. Since the CRE is not even a presbyterian denomination, might you be able to explain to me, Shaun, how the CRE has any authority whatsoever to revisit the lawful judgments imposed by RPCGA? Do they have any more ecclesiastical authority than any other blogging Tom, Dick or Harry?
Also, do you really think that it is appropriate for you to publicly proclaim that you are "Clearing R.C. Sproul, Jr's Name" when you have been so negligent with the published facts of the case? At best, by your own admission, your vindication of RCJr is based on nothing more than hearsay from RCJr's father. Might there be some bias there? And do you really think that what you have provided in this post is enough to overrule the unanimous judgment of the brothers and fathers of Westminster Presbytery (RCPGA), to whom RCJr and his thugs had at least nominally submitted themselves to? Do you stand by your self-proclaimed "clearing" of RCJr's name?
Thanks Pastor Shaun for posting this. You probably have no idea what a great service you've just done for the Reformed community. Please don't ever take this post down. Oh well. It doesn't really matter now. It's already getting reposted all over the internet.
Interesting that you enjoy posting your comments here, Mark, but that you're not permitting anyone to post comments on your own blog. Hmm.
Here's another one of those site's that reposted Pastor Shaun's article.
"Thugs" (x2)
"Mindless mantra"
"fugitives"
"Nazis"
Sure, a parent *might* be biased for his son. But that bare possibility hardly amounts to anything compared to the copious evidence here and elsewhere that you hate RC Sproul Jr with undying hatred.
If people refuse to believe hard evidence against RCjr, it may well be because of your own jihad against him tainted their judgments.
It is tragic that a good man like Shaun would devote himself to clearing Sprout of things that he freely admitted to. Sprout is apparently willing to let his would-be supporters walk the plank. But more interesting, I spoke with some of Sprout's victims this evening about Shaun's post. None of them had heard from Shaun, even though their identities and contact information are well known (I would be glad to provide such to him if he has an interest).
But that manifests the problem at hand: has Shaun improved the level of discourse on this matter when by his own admission he is presenting only one-sided hearsay? And getting back to my previous comment, what does it say about the level of information Shaun provides when it fails to address the significant body of evidence readily available, or that he has ignored it altogether? And what does it say that Shaun misrepresents the actions of the CREC with reference to Sprout? As CRE Moderator Randy Booth has said publicly, the committee is "not judicial in nature" and thus is not conducting the trial that Shaun represents that it is. What does that say about Shaun's grasp of the facts? I would honestly like to hear his response.
This is taken right out of Clinton's strategy play book of spin. Go find sympathetic people to clear our names.
It grieves me that the whole reformed community seems to be totally mute on this while they have no problem condemning Warren, McLaren and Osteen all the time.
I just do not get it. They were found guilty and defrocked and they admitted guilt. Now we are back to they were "fraudelent charges"? What? Why didn't they stand and fight the first time?
I use anonymous because we have already seen the character of the men involved. They are viscious.
I am not even going to attempt to reply to everything that has been said here. I do, however, want to thank those of you who saw this as what it was, and nothing more.
While I respect both R.C.'s, I am not their judge (nor am I a blind fan) and this post was not meant to clear anyone in a judicial sense. I think I've made that abundantly clear. (My title was a reference to these elders submitting to examination by others, not to my post proper.) My post was a modest attempt to share some good in the midst of a whole lot of malicious slander. Those of you who treated this post that way are to be praised for your restraint.
I also have no plan to interact with any of the other material out there on this blog. I have read it and, given my conversation with R.C., I question certain portions of it. I will not be posting those personal opinions, however. While it might be interesting to interact with some of you on them, it would not serve anyone's good. Not being close to the matter (nor asked to serve judicially), we would quickly become the blind leading the blind.
As for the CRE being "non-judicial", please forgive my referring to it as a trial. That was incorrect.
As for the RPCGA not holding a trial because the guys left before they could, I think it is patently clear that they sought the permission of the RPCGA to leave. It makes sense, if they were not treated fairly in the RPCGA, that they would seek judgment elsewhere.
As someone has rightly said, "the answer is probably in the middle" with guilt on both sides. I don't think any God-fearing pastor would not admit some guilt in a situation like this. R.C. said repeatedly that his son had sought his advice in doing the right things and in righting wrongs. I am willing to believe that he is telling the truth and, given the history of the RPCGA, am willing to allow for some error on their end, as well.
But the truth is not mine to decide. I am content to leave judgment in the hands of the Lord and I would strongly encourage you to do the same. If you want to do something, pray for these men, their accusers, and their judges.
For His Glory Alone,
Pastor Shaun
1. Since I was never unclear the first time, I cannot be thanked for clarifying anything. What I did was correct an inaccurate statement that you made about what I said.
2. The person we are discussing has a name. It is (note the spelling): R. C. Sproul, Jr.
Thank you for your interaction.
I appreciate you clarifying your positions and offering your very modest retraction. What I find most disconcerting is how casually you have slandered the fathers and brothers in the RPCGA; and when you're called on it, you have nothing more to offer your "the answer is probably in the middle" equivocation. And yet you boldly stated in your original post: "I also understand that there are those out there who find no greater pleasure than to slander another man’s character." What utter hypocrisy!
You also say: "I am told that most, if not all of the charges brought against the session of St. Peters were themselves fraudulent."
Those are very strong words, brother, but is this even remotely true? Don't we have available signed statements from RCJr's own hand admitting to the very actions he and the other three were deposed for? And yet you have by your own confession taken upon yourself the task of "Clearing R.C. Sproul, Jr's Name" of abuses that he has freely confessed to. With that in mind, I certainly understand your unwillingness to address the points that I and others have made here, but forgive me if I don't join with Mark Horne in proclaiming your "bravery".
Again you say: "In case of point, no trial actually took place before the pronouncement of deposition was issued."
I ask you again, Shaun, do you still represent that this is true, when in fact the "men" in question asked to be released before their trial could be held? Yet you continue: "This is highly irregular..." Was their deposition from office in full accord with the RPCGA's BCO? Was it not approved UNANIMOUSLY by Westminster Presbytery? Was the RPCGA really abusing their authority when the accused admitted to all of the charges they were defrocked for and were given the opportunity to challenge the disputed charges in a trial?
I challenge you, Shaun: would your readers have an accurate understanding of the facts from your public representations here? Can you present your readers with even a shred of evidence to back up your outrageous, and thus far unfounded, public claims?
As someone who attaches the title of "pastor" to his posts, you must surely understand that you are doubly accountable for your words. (James. 3:1) But you make serious accusations against the fathers and brothers of the RPCGA. (I Tim. 5:19) You've already admitted to making some erroneous claims (e.g. the CREC's "not judicial in nature" committee). How could you ever look a man like Don Kistler in the eyes; a man who has been friends with the Sprouls for decades, and who was offered an opportunity to abstain from Westminster Presbytery's judgment, but has risked his position and livelihood with Ligonier and his relationship with the Sprouls by approving along with the ENTIRE presbytery the deposition of these defrocked tyrants? Have you no honor for these men in the RPCGA? Have you loved your neighbors in the RPCGA as yourself? Have you been diligent to protect the good name of every member of Westminster Presbytery?
I would kindly but seriously suggest that you should remove this post and publicly apologize for the slander you have engaged in at the expense of your brothers in Christ in the RPCGA; not just for the testimony of their good name, but your own as well.
Thank you for your comments. Please see my previous comment.
Shaun
You have made some very good points. Thank you for reminding us of the other people who are being hurt by all of this. Some how Jr. has become the victim. I hope people will search to find the truth and not just what they want to hear.
And to the poster who commented about RC Sr. and his sources.....I couldn't agree with you more!
It's pretty obvious that Dr. Sproul has been repeating what he's heard from his son. But don't overlook the likelihood that Dr. Sproul has been in contact with Doug Wilson. That's not just mere speculation on my part. They're obviously not strangers to each other. Doug Wilson has spoken for Ligonier and written for Tabletalk. What could get Doug Wilson in any tighter with the old man than to exonerate his son and reordain him?
The ones with the most information on all of this are RC Sproul Jr and the RPCGA. Their stories vastly differ, but no one but those two parties know what has happened.
If the charges are fraudulent and he did all the above, then he has lied, hasn't he?
This is all quite perplexing.
No one is suggesting that these men did nothing wrong, but that what they did do wrong was not worthy of deposition.
I agree with you, Anon. This is all quite perplexing. But God knows, and I am praying for a fair and just conclusion to it all.
You bring up an excellent point when you question the right of outsiders to judge a situation having only limited information. While folks are certainly welcome to their personal opinions of a matter, the kind of public judging that has been going on when only partial information has been available has been appalling. How quickly many have jumped at their chance to cast the first (or second or third) stone. These would do well to consider the logs in their own eyes first. That these men have been deposed is a serious thing, but it gives no one the right to be belligerent.
The session of St. Peters, who are by no means outsiders, have determined that they were not treated fairly and are appealling this matter. This we know. We also know some of the reasons why. Now that we know these things, our job is to keep our mouths shut and await the outcome lest God judge us in the same way we judge.
For the honor of Christ, let us then proceed with wisdom.
But I thought the CREC Commission was "not judicial in nature." The RPCGA Declaratory Judgment was obviously judicial, and any appeal of that Judgment would obviously have to be judicial as well. So has the work of the CREC Commission now moved from non-judicial to judicial and they just haven't let the public know about it?
It's beyond perplexing that they left the denomination and appealed to somebody else (not to mention that the somebody else has stated that they are not looking at the matter judicially).
It's a very simple matter of "Dad said I couldn't have candy so I'll go ask Mom for some".
And the reason I think why people are jumping on a case like this (throwing stones as you say) is because Reformed people act pretty proud about having it all figured out with reasons for everything (and I speak as a Reformed person). And so when it's shown that they don't have it all together, and that they don't even live by their own rules, and that they don't hold themselves to the same standards that they complain about everybody else not following, well then the dogpile starts for a little bit of payback.
I mean, RC Sproul has argued that the Bible makes it clear that homeschooling is the ONLY way to educate your children. So he calls me a sinner because I don't do this, and yet I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut when his own Presbytery makes a public ruling, and he wants to fight it without going through the due process of the denomination that he chose to join. So I think that's a bit of why there's so much stone throwing. Sproul has thrown his fair share of stones at people who haven't done anything other than have a different viewpoint about something that the Bible certainly does not address explicitly.
Steve Codling
Thank you.
PS
RC Sproul Not Deterring Son From CREC
I'm simply reporting the other side of the story. I'm not making any judgments (at least, I'm trying not to--forgive me if I have).
If a man with this history came into my denomination, I *would* be in a place to make judgment (along with my fellow ministers) and I would expect that we would examine all sides, as well as honor true repentance demonstrated by its fruit. That is what we have done with men in the past.
As it is, I don't know everything about this situation and so can't give you a "yes, I'd let him in" kind of answer.
Blessings.
Now that the CREC's Saint Peter Report is out could you please share your thoughts on it with us? I'm having a hard time seeing how it clears R.C. Jr's name, but with your inside sources maybe you've got a different take on things.
Many Thanks and Saint Peter
With Wooly Mittens On
Lot's of questions, no answers. Not that I'm the least bit surprised.
The RPCGA acted prudently by deposing four of their Elders because they were deemed "not qualified" for the office. They did so to protect the sheep, and they should be commended for that. There is now no more clear evidence that R.C. Sproul Jr. is a wolf in sheep's clothing but that he is in open defiance of the denomination that he swore to submit to their discipline, and now that they deposed him from office he continues masquerading as a pastor.
How very "hateful" of me as a Reformed minister to say so. I guess my vitriolic comments will cause some to flee to Rome.
It just doesn't happen the way Sr. was talking about. The identity theft - "Ooops, sorry we missed that." Well okay. The attack on the families by Jr. & Co. "Hey, they were under church discipline, not us, and we wanted to make sure they didn't get away with it." Then, a "Ooops. Sorry. (again) it was our fault and I/we were at fault." At fault for what? You only apologize for a transgression. Ergo, a transgression was made (and documented.) Then, the daughter church thing. "That was a special circumstances thing." What? A daughter church set up OUTSIDE the bounds of the Presbytery? Why and for what purpose? And the child communion thing. What is the controversy here? It either happened or it didn't. Should be easy to determine. But, like the Whitewater case and Monica Lewinski scandal, to site an extreme comparison, all these "things" just sort of happened, all at the same time, all to the same guy. And now, a different group is to adjudicate the issue (again) because the results of the defrocking were not enjoyed.
I like R.C. I even send him dinero every month. But this is an embarrassment that should have been dealt with much sooner. Take your lumps and trust Believers to be merciful. The idea of "kicking against the pricks" is so useless and a poor use of resources. Jr. did it. "Whack! Now go to your room." Let's move on, but no. Sr. is taking the role of the intrusive parent denying that their kid had anything to do with the bad behavior at school.
Sr. - discipline Jr. as father to son. He's out of line for a lot of reasons. It would be the best thing to do for everyone, especially Jr.
I have one thing to say to RC Jr, and Doug Wilson, Physicans Reform Thyselves!
-A former Reformed student, now an investigative reporter.